Navigate the murky waters of mortgage trigger leads with us as mortgage expert Benjamin Sutton returns to shed light on how these controversial practices are changing the landscape for consumers and lenders alike. From the aggressive selling of consumer data by credit bureaus to the resulting onslaught of marketing that borrowers face, we tackle the pressing need for transparency and the push for legislative reform. Benjamin offers a decade's worth of industry insights, revealing the erosion of trust and the strategies professionals like us employ to shield our clients from unwanted solicitations.
Amidst the industry shakeups, we discuss the appointment of Jonathan Haddad as CEO of AIME and the ethical questions surrounding his company's engagement with trigger leads. Our conversation extends to the influence of builders' lenders in the home construction market, uncovering potential conflicts of interest and the importance of client education in financing options. We navigate the ethical maze of trigger leads and share personal anecdotes that highlight the significance of maintaining integrity in the mortgage process.
Cap off the episode with a critical look at the incentives and transparency—or lack thereof—in home buying, particularly within the new construction sector. We dissect the tactics used by builders to control market values and the ramifications for buyers who may be lured by seemingly attractive deals from in-house lenders. Sharing stories from the front lines, we underscore the complexities of this dynamic and why educating our buyers is more crucial than ever in making informed decisions in today's real estate market. Join us for a compelling exploration into the forces shaping the mortgage industry and the quest for a more ethical and consumer-friendly approach.
Key Factors Podcast is Powered by ReviewMyMortgage.com
Host: Mark Jones | Sr. Loan Officer | NMLS# 513437
If you would like to work with Mark on your next home purchase or as a partner visit iThink Mortgage.
Navigate the murky waters of mortgage trigger leads with us as mortgage expert Benjamin Sutton returns to shed light on how these controversial practices are changing the landscape for consumers and lenders alike. From the aggressive selling of consumer data by credit bureaus to the resulting onslaught of marketing that borrowers face, we tackle the pressing need for transparency and the push for legislative reform. Benjamin offers a decade's worth of industry insights, revealing the erosion of trust and the strategies professionals like us employ to shield our clients from unwanted solicitations.
Amidst the industry shakeups, we discuss the appointment of Jonathan Haddad as CEO of AIME and the ethical questions surrounding his company's engagement with trigger leads. Our conversation extends to the influence of builders' lenders in the home construction market, uncovering potential conflicts of interest and the importance of client education in financing options. We navigate the ethical maze of trigger leads and share personal anecdotes that highlight the significance of maintaining integrity in the mortgage process.
Cap off the episode with a critical look at the incentives and transparency—or lack thereof—in home buying, particularly within the new construction sector. We dissect the tactics used by builders to control market values and the ramifications for buyers who may be lured by seemingly attractive deals from in-house lenders. Sharing stories from the front lines, we underscore the complexities of this dynamic and why educating our buyers is more crucial than ever in making informed decisions in today's real estate market. Join us for a compelling exploration into the forces shaping the mortgage industry and the quest for a more ethical and consumer-friendly approach.
Key Factors Podcast is Powered by ReviewMyMortgage.com
Host: Mark Jones | Sr. Loan Officer | NMLS# 513437
If you would like to work with Mark on your next home purchase or as a partner visit iThink Mortgage.
Whether you're a seasoned professional, an aspiring investor or simply looking to stay ahead of the curve, this is the ultimate guide to making informed decisions in the world of property and real estate. So grab a seat and let's uncover the key factors that make all the difference. Welcome to Key Factors Podcast. And welcome back to another episode of Key Factors Podcast.
Speaker 1:I'm your host, mark Jones, and we are powered by ReviewMyMortgagecom, the largest index of mortgage programs in the nation. In today's discussion, we want to get a little granular about something that, as consumers, you may find super annoying. You may find some benefit out of it, but us, as mortgage professionals, we definitely believe it's annoying. I've got a guest with me today that is going to join the conversation and give light from a different perspective, maybe agree, maybe disagree on some things, but it'll be productive nonetheless. So, without further ado, benjamin Sutton, how you doing, brother?
Speaker 2:Good Mark, how are you Good doing?
Speaker 1:very well, man, good to have you back. So you brought this topic to me and I had had a previous discussion about it a couple of months ago. But the topic that we're talking about, ladies and gentlemen, is going to be trigger leads in the mortgage industry. Some of you may or may not know what trigger leads are, but you have, more than likely, encountered some form of a trigger lead in the past if you've applied for anything. So, ben, you want to tell us what trigger leads are. You know what? Let's back up. Some may or may not have seen your previous episode and for those that have not, I want to give you time to kind of tell your story real quick. Who are you? Where'd you come from?
Speaker 2:All that jazz. Yeah, absolutely. My name is Ben Sutton and I've been in the industry going on 10 years now. Look at my glow closer. Going on 10 years now, there you go, and it's been an awesome ride. I love what I do. I love helping people and solving problems and that's where I really found a big passion in the mortgage industry and, licensed in Texas, do all of my business here in Texas, have a small team here in San Antonio, and it's just an awesome business. I love what we get to do and the intricacies of the business too. I feel like I'm constantly learning more and more about it. There's just so much to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the industry. I said it before, one thing that is definitely consistent is change in this industry and shake it and move in, rolling with the punches, the ebbs and flows, the peaks and valleys. I mean, there's so many different shades of mortgage. That should be something, the many shades of mortgage 50 shades of mortgage 50 shades of mortgage.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll have to probably go 51 for a copyright or something, who knows. But you've been in the business for quite some time now and done very well for yourself, and this topic, I can imagine, resonates pretty heavily with you being a branch manager. You've got loan officers that are constantly, I would imagine, coming to you saying I lost the deal because this customer got baited into something with some online lender or something along those lines. So if you could tell us what our trigger leads I mean, what is that concept?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And it hits home for me because I did a loan for my sister last year and I think that these things happen. But maybe the customers don't tell us the extent of what they're dealing with. They just think it's somehow their information got out there. But my sister applied with me and I think that generally people that have higher credit scores maybe above 700, those are the ones that they're purchasing to target those ones because they're more qualified.
Speaker 2:Well, she applies with me two days go by and she's like hey, ben, I've gotten over 70 text messages, phone calls, voicemail. She starts sending me screenshots, she's getting blown up by people and it's just such a bad look on us. She's like how do these people get my information? What's going on? Like I'm being harassed over here and I just had to apologize, like I'm sorry, it's just an ugly part of the business. They're essentially bottom feeders. They're trying to swoop in and pick up a deal and they're going to promise you the world and quote you rates that are unrealistic until you apply with them and they're kind of just trying to derail the process with the person that you trust.
Speaker 2:And it's a very shady business practice and it made me realize what a big problem. It is seeing it happen so close to home like that. So what I've learned is that the credit bureaus sell this data. That's how they make their money, their data furnishers and there's people that are buying the data and who knows how many people purchase it, and it's a speed to lead type of thing where they're going to call them reach out as soon as possible. A lot of them are very shady in their approach as far as what they say. They almost make it seem like the bank that you applied with is that's who they're associated with. They'll say we received your application, we're partnered with TransUnion. We're here to make sure you're getting the best deal. I just need a few documents from you, things like that. So I don't think that people fall for it very often, but sometimes they do, unfortunately, and it's just a very ugly kind of stain on our business and I wish it wasn't that way and I hope something gets done about it to stop it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and another factor to it from the consumer's perspective is it can be confusing. I mean especially getting all types of different canned text messages, emails and phone calls. With this bait and switch concept it almost makes the borrower question what we're already offering them. To a certain extent, obviously, if we've built a relationship with that customer previously, we're able to get ahead of it and let them know. Hey, you're about to get bombarded with plenty of text messages, calls from all these call centers, et cetera.
Speaker 1:But I think maybe consumers are wondering, and lenders, and maybe they don't know realtors, they maybe don't worry about this too too much. But the way that consumers are essentially falling into this trap is anybody that has had their credit pulled in the past with certain companies. They sell your information. You've got credit bureaus that are actually selling the information to these companies and these companies are taking that and essentially using it to generate business. Of course. But I'm wondering how much business do they have to generate for it to be worth it? Because they're already operating on very thin margins, more than likely call center type atmosphere, and I think you had mentioned it before they're scraping the bottom of the barrel in this concept or this business model, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So, that being the case, let's get into how mortgage companies are utilizing this, because, let's just be honest, we all have access to these tools those of you out there listening there are tools that you can purchase, like MonitorBase, that allow you to have notification when any of your book of business, so to speak, have their credit pulled for anything mortgage-related. So if you're wondering how that even happens, it's being sold. You were sold the highest bidder, basically. And is it fair? I don't think so, but life isn't fair. And it goes, I guess, a bit further. To make sure people read what they're actually signing, Are you going to sell my information? But at that point it's probably already too late. They've already got your information. It's already going to happen. I mean, what are your thoughts on the concept of how we get rid of it all in all, if that makes sense?
Speaker 2:I know there's some discussion about it Up with the Senate. There's some bills right now where they're trying to get rid of it, and what I think is this I don't think it's fair as a consumer to just get bombarded when you're going through the process. I do believe that people should shop for their interest rates there's nothing wrong with that but it should be something that they decide to do. Or maybe there's a box that they check and they say I would like to get solicitations for mortgage offers. Unfortunately, it's the other way around, where a lot of people don't know about this. But you can go to wwwoptoutprescreencom and you have to do it in advance, usually a couple of weeks in advance, getting your credit pulled for a mortgage, and it's supposed to stop those solicitations from happening. So I just think it should be the other way around, and it kind of makes me think of, let's say, you were going to get your oil changed and you go to a company they seem like they're fairly priced, they've got good reviews online and they say okay, we're going to change your oil here, just wait in the waiting room here. And you're waiting in the waiting room and then people start coming in there, bombarding you telling you hey, no, don't get your oil changed here, come down the street, we'll take care of you. It's going to be cheaper and you're already with a company that you've done your research on, you trust, you're already in the process and it's just at that point.
Speaker 2:It's harassment and I don't think that it should be that way. I think that people should be allowed to shop for their mortgages. It should be encouraged, but it shouldn't be where they're getting 80 calls from all these different companies who are just doing it in a very slimy way call center environments, people that aren't getting paid very much on that mortgage because that's how they have to set it up and, unfortunately, when people aren't compensated very well, they don't take the time to be that good at their job. So it's not like you're dealing with a true professional. You're dealing with somebody that's going to take your loan, offer you the bottom on the barrel rate that they can offer you, throw it at the wall, hope it sticks and if things go wrong, they're not going to answer their phone, they're going to disappear.
Speaker 1:They're online lenders for the most part, so it potentially can derail somebody's transaction completely and give them a terrible experience when it's not something that they even signed up for at all, that's right and I think you nailed it there in regards to what they're getting by being baited into this concept from one of those lenders, and what I like to call it is paper pushers. You're dealing with a paper pusher, not an expert, somebody that's reading off of a screen, that doesn't know guidelines, doesn't advise you on anything. They're taking your information documents, putting them in a bucket and rolling forward that way. Example rocket mortgage. They're a big proponent in those that use these types of leads to generate revenue and they only offer conventional VA, fha, that's it, no other loan options that they have under their umbrella. So if you don't fit within those buckets, let's say you or I are speaking to a customer. We've got them going USDA, it's the best option for them, but they get a text message saying hey, I can get you a 5.7% interest rate on this type of loan. They've already bought into the concept of what you have advised them to do and now they're being thrown this curveball. That looks super appetizing. It's like oh my goodness, well over here I'm at 7% on this USDA, very low mortgage insurance, 100% financing, great program, but they're offering me a 5.7 something rate. So what it does is it adds that extra layer of doubt to what the borrower is already going through. That, in my opinion, being the largest purchase that they have, is a super overwhelming experience for most I mean there are many I would say gosh. If I had to pick a percentage, I'd say 90% of home buyers purchasing feel as though it is a very overwhelming feeling, regardless of how smooth it is. It's just a big transaction. You've got a lot of moving pieces, you've got sellers, you've got a lot of money on the line, all of those things that they don't need extra layers. But we don't need extra layers. I looked up earlier JC. If you can go to the reference I looked up earlier. I want to see if it actually gave us anything.
Speaker 1:I asked chatGPT how much revenue do you think is generated by trigger leads in the mortgage industry? It says trigger leads in the mortgage industry are a significant source of revenue, though estimating the exact amount challenging without specific data. Trigger leads are generated when a mortgage lender or broker receives notification that the homeowner or potential home buyer have had their credit pulled with a mortgage application. This information is valuable because it signals that the consumer is in the market for mortgage products, making them a hot prospect for lenders and brokers. The revenue generated from these trigger leads can vary widely, based on factors such as the volume of leads, conversion rate, loan values, commission rate and market conditions. It didn't give me an actual number, but I can imagine that if there are a company like no-transcript I mean, I've seen Super Bowl commercials they're not lacking in their pocketbook when it comes to spending money to make money. But how much money do you have to spend in order to break even on this? I can imagine that they're doing pretty well with it and I think, like you said, it's almost like a predatory practice. That being the case, jc, one more time with that reference. So over here, this was something that I had discussed on a previous episode Senators introduced Bill targeting mortgage trigger leads.
Speaker 1:The NBA supports the bill and a similar one in the House. So this talks about a bill that senators are trying to introduce that allow trigger leads to become illegal or to become something that you can get penalized. Let's say, maybe they call too many times or they can only allow certain types of communication when this happens. I think that that would be great, but what I feel is that you've got pocketbooks, that kind of dictate what ends up happening and I would imagine that rocket mortgage and those like them are in pretty tight with Congress, are in pretty tight with the legislators, things of that nature in regards to who knows contributions, things of that nature. So will it be passed? I don't know, but let's see here, let's go to some details. That trigger leads where consumers okay. So it's telling us more about what the leads are. It says NBA also committed to support a similar piece of legislation introduced in the US House of Representatives earlier this year, which also targeted the trigger lead practice. That's more late in the day.
Speaker 1:On Thursday, both independent community banks of America and National Association of Mortgage Brokers released their own public statement supporting the bill with an A and B, saying that it advocated for action on the issue in the past three Congresses. So I think that they are trying to do something about this. But will it pass? Honestly, I say I doubt it because, at the end of the day, it's a revenue generator, not only from the perspective of the lending company that's paying for it, but also from the perspective of the company that is actually selling that information. So you've got two revenue streams, probably two big powerhouses, and both are made up of many different companies and trades, but I think it would be very bullish of us to think that it's going to stop.
Speaker 1:I think it's more logical for us to educate folks on how to get around it, how to maneuver through it, how to cope with it honestly and I say the words cope because it's almost like a condition, if that makes sense, it's a condition of you purchasing a home. You're going to go through this slew of people giving you a call, shooting you emails, shooting you text messages. 70 text messages is what you said In two days. I believe that because I've had very similar situations to where it's like, okay, for how long am I going to get these messages? We don't know the answer to that. I mean, honestly, once we pull credit, it's off to the races and the information's out there. I mean, what are your thoughts on all that stuff?
Speaker 2:I would love to see a change. Like you said, there's some heavy players on both sides of it and there's a lot of money involved and that doesn't make it difficult to get those things changed. I think it's especially bad now in a market when rates go up, because you've got these call centers and headset jockeys. They were doing refies one away pretty quickly, completely. They just kind of pivoted over to trigger leads. I think it's what a lot of them are doing now and business is tough right now. It's hard to get it. So they are really desperate and I think it's worse than ever right now.
Speaker 1:I have to agree.
Speaker 2:I'm hoping over time maybe it kind of solves itself. It's hard to say. Maybe when rates go down they'll kind of lay off it and focus more on the refies again. But I do think it's a big problem right now and it makes us look bad as an industry too.
Speaker 1:So, that being the case and I think we agree on that fully what do you say to someone that approaches you with why not use them instead of being against them? In that instance, let's say, for example, previous company of mine Academy Mortgage no longer Academy, they are now Guild Mortgage, by the way would coach us to utilize these trigger leads. They were paying for the technology. They wanted us to use it. They had canned scripts ready to go.
Speaker 1:Not too many of us used it and I'm talking nationally for the company simply because we're not call center loan officers. We go out, we get our business, we build the relationships, etc. But that was one of the issues that they were pushing within our sales meetings and things of that nature. Why aren't you leveraging these trigger leads instead of going against them, since we haven't used them in a while now? We're on the side of God. It's annoying. I wish it would stop. How do we avoid it even happening in the first place? We'll talk about how to avoid it happening, but what do you say to somebody that says why don't you start leveraging them, ben?
Speaker 2:I think that it just comes down to the person and their morals and their ethics and how they want to do business. If they think short term or long term, I think it's a very short-sighted way to do business. I feel the same way about buying leads in general. I think it's a little different, though. Typically, when you buy a lead, that person went to Lending Tree or somewhere. They put in their info and they're asking to be contacted.
Speaker 1:Intention yeah.
Speaker 2:Exactly that's such a bad thing, because they're expecting it and they're the rate shopper type of client where they want that For anybody else. I just don't think it's a good thing.
Speaker 1:You raised another good point. That may skew the conversation a little bit while going a rabbit hole, but there are plenty of customers out there that are rate shoppers. I put the quotations up in the air for those that are listening, because I have a distinct differentiator when it comes to who is a rate shopper, who is not a rate shopper. Customer comes to you and immediately asks what your interest rates are. I quickly tell that customer that's not how this works. If somebody is giving you interest rates at the first call, all of that run, all of these things that are posted they're more than likely going to have additional points or things are going to change once you actually apply with them, et cetera. Then I show cases that bank rate had lawsuits about bait and switch, things of that nature. That's it. How, how do I ask this? How do you deal with your rate shopper in general in determining one? Are they a rate shopper or are they not? Like for myself, if you're a 620 credit score and you're looking for DPA, I'm going to educate you real quick. That rate is not anything that is of a concern as a whole. Yes, individually, if you're asking for bond funds. Here's how it works. This is the rate that you get for this amount of funds. Now, if we go off script, you're still going to have the customer that is rate conscious.
Speaker 1:In my opinion, it has to do with marketing big bank, because that's truly what they market is interest rate. If they want more loans, they lower the rate and they turn up the marketing volume. All of a sudden, loans come in. Then they turn the rate back up and loans slow down. We, as consumers, have been kind of pre-trained. What is the word I'm looking for, without being political groomed, to focus on interest rate when, in my opinion and that's why we created Review my Mortgage it has to do with program more than anything. There's a lot of folks that leave tons of money on the table because a certain program wasn't offered to them and they went with the lowest interest rate. That being the case, what do you look for? Are there signs? When it comes to when you're dealing with a customer and they're shopping for rate, what is your spiel, so to speak?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you can always tell when somebody is very rate conscious, they want to get the best deal. I think it's kind of in human nature to want that and kind of like a fear of loss or of getting a bad dealer ripped off, especially with such a big purchase like that. But I think that. Sorry, what was the question again?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean right. Here you raise another one the difference between best deal and best rate. Are they one and the same?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So in my spiel, what I tell people is I think it comes down to education, right? So getting a mortgage is really like anything, in the sense that you get what you pay for and there's almost always going to be somebody that's going to do it for cheaper. Undercut you. But look at any other industry or any other major service that you go for the cheapest is rarely the best, right, it's true? You look?
Speaker 1:at doctors, lawyers tattoo artists, right?
Speaker 2:You don't want to go cheap on something like that, because having a loan go sideways on you can be a nightmare experience for you and your family, and if you go with the cheapest, a lot of times that's what you're getting. Is the lack of experience right? And I explain to people that, yeah, maybe I get paid. I mean, when it comes down to it, sometimes it's a matter of my comp is higher than that loan officer's call center. And here's the reasons why because I'm really good at what I do and if you value that, you're going to pay a little bit more to work with me. But, trust me, you're going to get an amazing experience and I hope that you see the value in that. If you don't see the value in that, you want to go to the call center down the street or whatever, then that's fine. That's up to you and I wish you the best.
Speaker 1:Right, and I'll still be here when they eff up your loan Exactly.
Speaker 2:And handle it with grace right. That's right, because you have to, and a lot of times they do come back, or you get them on the refinance because they had such a bad experience. Sure, sure.
Speaker 1:There was a discussion that I had back in Florida kind of about this topic and one of the guests kind of busted it wide open and said what is up with the concept of go to school, become the best student you can be, get the best grades? Let's say, example of an attorney like you were saying, graduate with honors, you did the best you could. Now it's time to get out, to go be the cheapest lawyer out there. I mean, does that even go hand in hand? It's like our folks forgetting the level of expertise that you can get based on what you're paying. I mean, essentially, you can go to Walmart or you can go to I don't know some other example of something like that. But which do you prefer? If you prefer the cheaper version, no problem, but you get what you pay for. In essence, Right.
Speaker 2:So it may be a similar outcome of what you're getting, but it's like you can go and get a piece of chicken off the dollar menu or you can go to a really fancy restaurant. That same piece of chicken with a full meal is going to cost you $800. But it's a very different spirit. It's still a chicken, right, but the experience is everything when it comes to these things, and going cheap is just, for the most part, it doesn't pay off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, one of those chickens is going to give you cancer and the other might not. Exactly so, at the end of the day and us as experts in our field, I believe it's important for us to continue to advocate for this concept. I think the more that people know about what they're getting into, know what to expect, it helps us, but it also helps them making better financial decisions. I don't know if they're choices because, let's be honest, we as consumers have tons of choices when it comes to just about anything. If you don't believe you have choices or options, just have your credit pull for a mortgage reason and wait for the phone to ring. It's kind of that concept. So let's go over to. Let me see here. I wanted not that one just yet. Let's go to.
Speaker 1:I asked why are trigger leads legal? To the Google machine. That AI says trigger leads are legal in all 50 states. The company buying the leads meets the certain legal conditions. This is because the Fair Credit Reporting Act preamps all but a few state laws passed in 1971. I think that might need to be updated. 1971, a lot has changed. Technology has changed, access has changed. The Federal Trade Commission and the Consumer Protection Bureau support trigger leads because they think it gives consumer a chance at getting the best financing possible. Ooh, that almost goes hand in hand with what we were talking about. On what side they would actually be on? Because they know it generates income without thinking of the repercussions or the experience or the burden or added anxiety that it adds to a borrower's transaction in general. Would you agree?
Speaker 2:That is the argument. Right, that's the other side of it, and I've seen loan officers and they'll argue this. They'll go well. How is it a bad thing if the consumer is getting a better deal? At the end of it, isn't it a good thing for them? It's an interesting position to have because, yes, they could be getting a better deal, but I just think there's so much more to getting a mortgage than getting the better deal.
Speaker 2:I think for some people it's a good thing for the rate shopper type of thing. They might be like this is great, the banks are hitting me up, they're all hitting the point for my business. If they've got a super, a paper cookie cutter loan that nobody could really mess up for that person, yeah, I think it is a good thing. But I don't think that's the majority of people that are dealing with this. For a lot of them, it's going to confuse them, it's going to overwhelm them, it's going to stress them out with what is already an overwhelming and stressful process. I have seen that as an argument and it's an interesting way to look at it, because they could end up getting a better deal. A lot of times they do if they go with them, but it's like do you really know who you're working with? There's really no trust factor there in what's such a big decision that you're making For the right type of client. Small percentage of them, I think that is true, but for the most part it's just harassment and it's not a good thing.
Speaker 1:I did a little research on pros and cons of trigger leads, both from a lender's perspective and a consumer's perspective. I was trying to figure out what kind of benefits does it have to a borrower that's being bombarded with all these calls? But you're right, it does give them an opportunity. But if that opportunity is inflated and incorrect then it's not going to go over well and leave a bad taste in their mouth. Some of these things here, starting with the lender, trigger leads is good for marketing. Explain how trigger leads are more targeted and timely in the marketing effort. They're basically saying that it is efficient marketing dollars spent, so to speak. It gives that lender a competitive advantage over anybody else. Well, does it? I do believe that it does. But is it an ethical advantage over the other? Then, from the perspective of that actual lead, it gives them more options and it basically says that they're now more financially aware because they've been bombarded with these messages and different options, etc.
Speaker 1:I don't fully agree with that. But what are your thoughts? Because, let's face it, trigger leads are not just in the mortgage industry. That's just what we're focused on. Because that's what we do. I wonder what else are? What other industries? What other industries? What industries, just what industries use trigger leads? Let's see if it gives me some trigger-leads or marketing companies using it Auto lenders, car dealerships, credit card providers, insurance companies, personal loan providers it's pretty much everybody in the financial sector and sales that are using these things. I think, if we're trying to combat this, it's almost as if we would need to form a coalition with other industries in order to make it happen.
Speaker 2:Right. And who are we up against? Experian, Transunion, Equifax? Oh yeah, the Memmets. That's how they make their money. That's right. It's a really tough one to try and make something happen, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree 100%. So let's say, in a perfect world for you and I, trigger leads go away. Tomorrow, let's say that the Congress gets their stuff together and they go. You know what? We're going to pass this and trigger leads now have regulations on them. They can only reach out one time, it can only be between the hours of X and X and it has to be a phone call, not a text message or an email. Perfect world. What are your thoughts on what that would do to our industry?
Speaker 2:I don't know the extent of what it would do, but I assume a lot of mortgage shops overnight would be out of business, massive layoffs in the industry. It also makes me wonder the credit reporting agencies how it would affect them, and maybe that's a huge loss of revenue for them. And then now, as you know, as a lender, polling credit reports just in general has gotten more and more expensive Absolutely, and with this I do see that it could affect it to where they're going to have to make up that revenue somewhere. Credit reports are going from $130 to $300 or to make up for it, which does hurt the consumer.
Speaker 2:So I don't know the extent of what it would do. But that's a really good question because I just don't think there's a lot of monitoring as far as how big of a thing it is. I was also reading that there's not really a complaint department for this type of thing, so there's not a big history or track record of consumers' experiences on the other side dealing with it, which maybe is something that should be done where there's like, hey, did you get harassed by 70 people in two days? Contact the senator or whatever to try and do something about it or sign this agreement or whatever the case, right.
Speaker 1:In general, what are your thoughts? And this I just thought of if credit companies, credit bureaus, credit monitoring companies are charging us to pull borrower's credit and that continues to increase, and then they're also making money on the other side and selling that information out there, wouldn't you think that they would also kind of be on the side of keep the trigger leads rolling, y'all?
Speaker 2:The credit. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a. I just thought about that. Now it's like wait a minute, stopall. Ala מת horm. It is already happening the use of incorporating this same concept in the builder side of the lending. Meaning, let's say you're a borrower that comes to you to apply they had full intention of purchasing a pre-owned home, but now, since you've pulled credit let's say, lennar's lender, dr Horton's lender they now have access to monitor base, which I don't know if they do or don't. Maybe it's an expense that they don't need to have because they've got the ups people coming in. But if they were, how crazy would it be to be able to have your customer receive a text message, phone call, email from a builder lender that's not only offering them rate but now offering them incentives on homes, etc. Etc. So you're just completely out of the picture like that. I just thought about that. That would be terrible.
Speaker 2:Right, I would hate that.
Speaker 1:But losing deals to that concept of things that we cannot control. It doesn't matter how much of an expert you are, how much of a pencil whipper pencil whippers would I use for somebody that can do badass job on contracts or things of that nature but it would gobble up a lot of the market share that is originally not intended for them. That's a scary concept. It is?
Speaker 2:I haven't heard of that. Thankfully it's not a thing Same with the builder lender's business. A lot of them don't do refinances as well, so that's the plus side. We lose the purchase and get them on the refi. But that would be awful Right.
Speaker 1:I just thought about that. I'm going holy cow. They could totally just now. Obviously it's all about inventory, it's about location, all of those things. But if you are a first-time home buyer that doesn't know any better and you saw House driving that you love, so you called the realtor. On the sign, the realtor works with Ben. You get Ben's link to apply, you apply, boom. 24 hours later you get a text message from these builders in the area that say, hey, you want a 4.5 interest rate and 20 grand off your property and we'll pay closing cost. I mean, who sees that and goes, nope, I don't want it? I mean, you know what I mean. It's human nature to flock towards something that sounds too good to be true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it could even be a third party that gets them excited about builder incentives. It's like okay, where are you looking? Okay, let me connect you with this builder. These are their incentives. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's scary. Why it hasn't been done, I don't know, but that terrifies me a little bit. Having said that, I might just clip this whole part out. I've given many ideas, discussion, exactly. That being the case, I wanted to talk about some builder side of things, but let's look at this article to kind of cap this off. So, national Orgage Professionals and I was not aware of this gentleman here before Ben came in. We were talking about him. So, ben, you want to tell me about this cat.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I work on the broker side and the wholesale side and it's a really hot topic right now. I've only been on the broker side since September, so fairly new to it, but I'm on all the Facebook groups and see all the commotion and stuff. So AIM is a group that's there to represent mortgage brokers, the Association of Independent Mortgage Brokers. People pay to be members and they go to Congress and they try and do things to help out the mortgage broker community.
Speaker 1:They advocate for us.
Speaker 2:They advocate Absolutely, and the group has a good reputation of doing that. They had a previous CEO that stepped down and then this guy took over as the new CEO and I don't know much about him. I know that he runs a company and it's a broker shop and they're pretty heavy on doing trigger leads and this guy is now the face and the CEO of the Association for Mortgage Brokers Wow. So in a lot of the Facebook groups there's a lot of really upset people members of the Association that are paying dues to it and they're going this is the guy that you're bringing in. He's like direct competition. My borrowers are getting blown up by people at his company and they're saying all kinds of stuff trying to get them to go over. Wow.
Speaker 2:And a lot of people are pushing and saying, hey, look, if you want to be in this role and get respected, stop the trigger leads. It's not cool. We're not going to respect you if you're doing that too. And I don't think that he has mentioned anything about backing down from it, maybe doing it in a way where he wouldn't target people that are members of the Association, but it's definitely a hot topic on the broker side right now and to me. I'd have a hard time respecting the guy too. I just don't think that's a very respectable way to run a business and then try and say that hey, I'm going to advocate for you.
Speaker 1:It's almost backdoor-ish, undercutting, undermining you want to call it whatever you want, but that's a little shady. So let's see what this says on a personal level, with his stance on trigger leads, and professional level, with board expansion. It's been nearly two weeks since Jonathan Haddad was named let's see here Katie Sweeney's successor to head up the Association of Independent Mortgage Experts. So AIM for acronym. We love those acronyms and, according to the open letter Haddad sent to AIM members, it's already become challenging, to say the least. Haddad said that he was criticized for using mortgage trigger leads, a practice that Association said it's against. It's also one broker-action coalition will be lobbying for the Congress congressional level, and that's what we're talking about with when it comes to builders and we'll get into that discussion here shortly but those incentives, things of that nature every time I've asked anyone in the industry that has been in longer understands it a bit better. Their response is they've got better lobbyists than we do. So essentially, this is one of the guys that is going to be lobbying for us, but he's on the other side of what we actually want. It's a conflict, right? Let's continue. Please know that I'm fully committed to addressing these issues head on and I intend to match my words with actions, haddad wrote.
Speaker 1:He said he's read every comment and every message posted within Facebook groups, such as brokers or better, that criticize his use of trigger leads to a cure business. No, it hasn't been easy, but no one said it would be Famous words. Ooh, what is this? Is this some kind of video? Here we go, all right. Well, I can't hear what he's saying, so we'll skip that. When it comes to credit triggers, I will tell you that it is the environment I grew up in, being on the retail space for as long as I was. Haddad said in a video posted on the brokers are better Facebook group. However, I am for and will say this multiple times, I am for the banning of credit triggers. Really Interesting, very interesting. You know, if he's grown a business and the model is based on trigger leads, he's now advocating or saying here that he's against banning it. Is he now a politician?
Speaker 2:Maybe he's getting one thing and do a different thing he's got a fat salary working maybe so He'll now, and that pays the bills.
Speaker 1:In the event that if you, as a broker, get any kind of issue with a credit trigger because of next door lending, all you have to do is reach out to me directly and I will get handled right away. Only if you are an aim approved member. Well, that's pretty freaking. Okay, wait a minute.
Speaker 2:He says he's against it, but he's still doing it. But then we won't do it if you pay us money. Basically yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, talk about ethics, talk about being an advocate for what we believe in, and then to say something like this in the event, if you, as a broker, get any kind of issue with a credit trigger because of next door lending which next door lending is owned by this gentleman all you have to do is reach out to me directly and I will get it handled right away. Only if you are an aim approved member Would that be a form of discrimination? I don't know what that is. It just sounds illegal.
Speaker 2:It does, right it does, he'll continue doing it. Yes, says he's against it, he wants some ban. But until they're banned he's going to run a business based off of that. And then, unless you pay my association money, then it's fair game. I'll keep going after everybody else. That's right, better pay up.
Speaker 1:Being the in-crowd or be left behind is what he's basically saying here because we're going to smoke you. Wow, I'm surprised that didn't get more criticism, and maybe it did it has. Okay, well, let's talk about that being ethical a little bit and then we'll roll into the concept of these incentives in that concept that we were talking about. What are your thoughts on this as a whole? I mean, how In anyone's right mind that is, let's say, because he had to get voted in, right, I would imagine.
Speaker 2:No, that's another problem. Okay, I don't have a voting system and people were upset about that. They should. They have a board, I guess, and they're like this the guy, good old boys, yeah wow, okay, so it runs even deeper.
Speaker 1:Yeah, with the collusion with the I don't know hands in other pockets that they shouldn't be in, in my opinion, and I think that's what we have faced in our industry many different times. The last time that it happened, there were heavy, heavy regulations that were put in place to help consumers and throughout, I guess, my career in mortgage, the CFPB and before that, just HUD and anybody else regulatory. Their intention is to help the consumer. Their intention is to look out for the consumer and, as we read, their belief is that this is looking out for the consumer because now they have options. What are your thoughts on that? That's just, I don't know it's, it's kind of like a it's backwards, it's backwards.
Speaker 2:It's hard to take serious.
Speaker 1:Yes, it almost seems as though you know the Wizard of Oz, the man behind the curtain. Nobody knows who he is until you look behind the curtain. It's like this person that's supposed to be behind the curtain is on a Pulpit that's preaching to everybody, but supposed to be behind the scenes. It they're doing in the wide open and there's nothing really that we can do about it as lenders individually. And then, if we go to a national scale, it's not just the mortgage business that Is facing these issues, so it's not just the mortgage business that would end up changing it. We'd have to create some type of I Don't know affinity group, something that that goes alongside Coming together and going okay enough with the trigger leads, when in actuality it's affecting the consumer and it's also affecting the independent broker, independent mortgage banker. But yet Don't we make up almost Half of what the production is in the United States on home purchases. You know Like, are they trying to rid us of that? Make it difficult. We've already got margin compression. There's just so many layers to this that it's. It's a bummer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, anywho, how to avoid trigger leads? We'll go over that real quick and then we'll talk about this builder stuff. So one way you can avoid trigger leads is going to this national do not call list. So do not call dot gov. Make sure that you register all your devices. Make sure you register your phone, all that jazz. That's one of them.
Speaker 1:The other is what you mentioned, it before it's called on opt, out opt out, opt out, pre there it is pre screen, oops, pre Screen Dot com, and I'm showing you guys these references so that you know exactly where you need to go in order to stop this nonsense from Continuing to happen. Hit the opt out button here, national, follow the steps on all these three and this will help you avoid all of the nonsense, not just from the mortgage side of things, but auto loans, credit cards, anything that has to do with your finances. That is Also sales at the same time on our side of the tracks, so Anything to add to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I recommend doing it. I want to say there's a, there's a time period it might be like five years or something, okay, and then it expires. So it's free, takes you a minute to do. Yep, well worth your time to go ahead and opt out from it, unless it's something that you want. If it's something you want, you don't mind being bombarded with phone calls and it is the same. You know they're doing the same thing. We saw all the different industries that use it. They're essentially doing soft pulls on people's right. They're saying, hey, you got good credit, we're gonna send you all these credit card offers, all of these different things. Right? So if you would like to get less junk mail, essentially that's another reason to do it too, because they're constantly doing that type of stuff to people and you know I think that's another form of harassment to you go to check your mail. You got to pile this big a junk and there's like two important messages and yeah, there's nothing you can do to stop. No, you are on the money.
Speaker 1:Well, that's some good stuff for consumers, for other lenders out there, and if you are a lender out there, that this is something that affects you, by all means become an advocate for the other side that is trying to end this nonsense. Alright, so let's talk about a hot topic that, in my opinion, has come up quite a bit between Mortgage professionals, realtors. In my opinion, they don't. They don't really care about this Because it doesn't necessarily affect them, but Builders are doing some things that we can't compete with. I mean, there's we don't have the home number one, so we don't have the ability to Hide costs in the home value itself. But what do you feel think about the builder incentives that are going on?
Speaker 2:They've got some crazy good deals out there, yeah, and I Think that it is steering right, which is illegal, right, but it the loophole is that the builder is the seller. The seller can choose to accept whatever offer they like, and they also Are able to like they can't require you to go through their lender. But they're right, they've got all this money to play with their margins of building a home. A lot of times they also own the mortgage companies. They're making money on that end too, and then they're able to play around with it to where it's like they strong arm people in like, hey, you can use your own lender, but you're gonna pay all this extra money or go with us and we're gonna give you this deal. A lot of times it is a good deal. Not every time, though, right.
Speaker 2:I found that the ones that actually own their own mortgage companies it's all kind of under one entry those ones have some great deals. Sometimes it's an outside lender. They've got some type of marketing agreement, right. They're saying, hey, we're gonna give you ten thousand incentives, but they're charging them ten thousand in fees, correct, kind of a look over here While we do something over here, type, right, so I encourage people to shop their loans. I think it's important to do that.
Speaker 2:I'm always transparent and honest with my clients. If I'm up against a builder lender, let's look apples to apples. That are loan estimates. A lot of times I'm gonna say, hey, that's a really good deal. If I were you, I would go with them. Right. Unfortunately, I lose a lot of business to builders, especially right now with a big lack of inventory and the crazy incentives that they're throwing out there. But I do think that it is steering and I wish something could be done to make it more of a fair, leveled out playing field. Right, but as long as I've been in the business, it's been something that we've had to go up against.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you are correct, it's always been something. But I can tell you, when sales were lower on the builder side, they were more inclined, more open to allowing outside lenders, especially those outside lenders that were sending them business. It's like, oh, you want to go shop new homes? Hey, we'll come over here to dr Horton, I can stay your lender, we get the incentives, all that jazz. But lately, with this shift in the market being that inventory super low, rates are higher than what they have been, it created an opportunity for builders to make up the sales by number one, having inventory number two With that inventory, knowing that there's margin in it. And instead of lowering the price, let's move that money over to the mortgage side, buy rates in bulk or Buy it down behind the scenes. They basically use a joint venture in order to do that. Because, let's face it, if you're buying down the rate that much, like they are, you'd see it on the closing disclosure. In addition, there are max Contributions on every type of program and they're well over what the max is. So how is that not being examined a little bit further? But in the end, who benefits from this is the buyers. So it's hard for us to Almost bash what they're doing when you.
Speaker 1:It makes sense, especially from a buyer's perspective and I like to, instead of saying I lost the deal. I don't really look at it that way anymore. I used to, but you can't really lose something you never had, and I like having those conversations upfront with the borrower. Hey, are you interested in new construction or pre-owned? Well, we're not sure. Okay, let's go over the differences between the two. What are you getting with this? Are you planning to sell within the next three to five years? If you are, just know that you'll still be competing with the builder when you go to sell. That's when you'll find out how much your home is really worth.
Speaker 1:I also have the conversation about giving the builders lender, your documents, your credit score, all of those things, and I flip it on them and say hey, if you were buying a pre-owned home, would you give your documents, your financial information, basically show all of your cards to the seller of a pre-owned home? No, then why would you do it with a new construction home? It's the incentives. Well, yeah, it's the incentives. Okay, so basically, you're trading in one for something else. That is that ethical. I don't know. Is it beneficial to them? Sure, it is, but there's been many cases that I've seen that it wasn't beneficial. Man, back in the day we would see builders that the property would come back low value and know that the borrower has cash to pay for it in the bank and say, no, we're not dropping the price. You gotta make up the difference in cash, why we know you have the funds. So there's all your cards. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that they're not gonna really be your advocate. They don't have your best interest in mind. I think that sometimes they can get you a really good deal, but it's always a good idea to talk to an outside lender, get a second opinion. Even the real estate agents that I work with like I don't mind having a conversation with these buyers up front, even if they know they're probably gonna go new construction route. I don't mind having a conversation, educating them, help them understand what's a good deal, what's not a good deal, and it's a chance for me to build a relationship with somebody that may end up selling that home, buying another one or wanting to refinance down the road. Correct.
Speaker 2:As far as what you said about the value going down or the value coming in low and them having the money, I think that's a huge conflict. Should be illegal for them to share that information, but unfortunately I'm pretty sure that they do. And it also makes me wonder. I've seen this happen on new construction before. The builders are somewhat able to control the market price because they are building the homes at a certain price, and what happens a lot of times is they'll start a new community and they're going okay, these homes are gonna be in the 400,000s or whatever and there's not really anything else that's around there like that. There's no real comparable home sales. So the first few homes that they build they're coming in way low. The builders kind of factor that in and they kind of artificially create the market because, okay, they're gonna eat the loss on maybe the first three, but now they've got three comps or whatever.
Speaker 2:They had them at that price. And now the next one they build are like hey, these ones sold for this amount. So they're kind of creating a market in a sense. So you think that it's not an issue because they've got all this money to play with. But it's like is that really the value of the home? And I think it drives up prices a lot and I don't think it's a healthy increase in value. I think it's kind of artificial.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean you raised a great point. When it comes to our market in general, I for one have believed for a while now that new construction is almost the driver of our values, because they're the ones that still have inventory that is hitting the ground. And I find it funny when I have a, let's say, turn down builder loan that comes back with a low appraisal. It's like, guys, you know they were your comps right, like you knew this was gonna happen. The house next door sold for this, that one sold for that, just no secrets here. And what I believe, and pretty firmly, is that absolutely they knew, but now they got a little bit more value than they did before. It's not. For example, let's say, the home next door sold for 300, they're gonna sell this one for 320, but the appraisal comes in at 310. Well, they just moved the value 10 grand. No, it wasn't 320, but it's not 300 anymore, right. So that's why I go into and with any borrower that has that as a concern or even interested in going new construction, I want them to have all the facts transparently. And is it bias? It is to a certain extent, I'll be honest. It is, but I present it transparently. I ask the right questions. How long are you gonna stay in the home? Because the true value of your home isn't actualized until the first person in that neighborhood decides to sell the home. That's not the builder. That's when you'll get the true market value of that home.
Speaker 1:But there are opportunities. Austin Pantuso had him on the other day and was talking about a customer that he had that caught the market at the right time. They bought it at the low one year later, sold it at the high and made 100 grand. I said so are they gonna pay taxes? He said yeah, they're gonna pay taxes on that because they didn't stay in the home two years. But there are opportunities out there. So I don't want folks to get us wrong thinking that we're bashin' builders because they are a necessary evil. That is in our industry. That has to remain because we don't have inventory. Well, let's face it, you know, unless you and I are gonna take the charge on doing all the renovation loans in the United States I mean at least in Texas there's just not enough inventory that is ready to go, even if it's pre-owned, for the amount of buyers out there that are on the fence.
Speaker 2:Truly, you know, Right there's a shortage, so they've got a really big advantage right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I wonder I mean on this builder talk. I wonder what chat GPT would say to this if we asked it. How is how? Are incentives from the builder to use their lender legal Bing, let's see what it says Intentive also by a builder used?
Speaker 1:Preferred lender are legal and quite common in the real estate industry, but are subject to certain regulations and guidelines to ensure the fairness and transparency. These incentives can take various forms, such as paying closing costs, offering upgrades to the property or providing discounts on the sale price. Let's go, goes against RESPA. Okay. Key considerations for legality Disclosure builder and lender must fully disclose any incentives and relationships between the builder. I think it's pretty obvious in most cases as to who owns what Voluntary choices.
Speaker 1:Buyers should not be coerced into using the builder's preferred lender. While incentives can be offered, the choice of the lender must be left to the buyer without undue pressure. This means that while the builder can offer incentives to use the preferred lender, they cannot require it as a condition of the purchase. So that in itself and I bet they're pulling this from some regulations that is verbatim. Chatgpt is pretty smart and I've got the advanced version of it, so that in itself coercion is that, not. Coercion in itself is offering incentive to go somewhere versus not. So yeah, you have the choice, but if you do, you've got this waiting for you.
Speaker 2:Right, right, and they're gonna harass them along the way. Like you know, I've been the outside lender before and their builder lender is constantly trying to get in there. Hey, rates went down. Hey, we can do this. We can do this the whole time, absolutely Doing everything they can to get in there. Ultimately, it is the choice of the home buyer if they wanna go with the outside lender, so I think that's how they get away with it. But I've heard I mean, you can even look up there's a lot of instances where it's like the builder would cancel the contract if they didn't use their in-house. Well, I've seen it. There's stuff like that. Absolutely. There's a lot of them that are not doing it the right way.
Speaker 1:I mean we saw builders back when values were increasing substantially like month over month, cancel people out of homes to resell them for hire. Yeah, I mean unbelievable, and I think there's lawsuits against certain builders about that still. But again it's like a necessary evil that is necessary in our market, especially in our market, because we don't have the inventory that it takes to be able to do this. So it answers the question here and I wonder how accurate it is. It says why it's allowed. Let's see. Okay, it says the rationale behind allowing these incentives is to offer benefits to the home buyer, such as reduced closing costs, and to facilitate the home buying process.
Speaker 1:Builders often have relationships with lenders who understand the specifics of the properties and can offer tailored financial solutions that might benefit the buyer. However, the legal framework ensures that such arrangements are transparent and do not unfairly disadvantage the buyer or violate the laws intended to protect the consumer. In summary, builder incentives to use their lenders are legal, as long as it's transparent, disclose optional for the home buyer and do not violate RESPA regulations or do not discriminate. That being the case, I wonder how the concept of what they're doing, where this home has incentives but that home does not have incentives. I see that as kind of a gray area that should be black or white. You're either gonna offer the incentives on all your products or you're not, because then I think you're either discriminating, you're steering. There's some kind of something in there that is just not right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really good point, because that's the whole RESPA thing right. If you offer something, you gotta offer it for everybody. We can't just say, hey, we're gonna give you a free appraisal, but not this other person. We have to offer it across the board. It doesn't matter what property they buy. So the fact that they're able to get away with it when the numbers make sense for them on certain communities seems a little shady to me.
Speaker 1:And I wonder if there is a case to be had with discrimination, because, let's say you've got a home that is 300,000 versus a home that's 400,000 or even 200. We'll say a four and a two the $400,000 home has all these incentives, but the $200,000 home does not, all from the same builder. Well, would that not be a form of discriminating based on qualification? Absolutely yes, because I can't buy that home, I don't get the incentives. Like, wait a minute here.
Speaker 1:But again, one person, two people, can raise this concern and it does nothing. The entire mortgage industry from a broker, mortgage banker aspect. We've been trying to fight it for years, but again, we don't have the right lobbyists in there speaking for our behalf. We've got people like Haddad in there that were backdoor agreement, probably some reason or another, that he's in that position other than he was the best man for the job, right? Does that make sense? Oh, yeah, well, how are we on time, all right? Well, ben, I mean we've had some good discussions on this stuff. Do you want to add anything else to this discussion, man?
Speaker 2:I think we hit the nail on the head. We've gone over everything. And you know, I would just say to any loan officers out there, as far as the trigger lead topic, to just focus on education, right, I don't think competition is a bad thing. In fact, I enjoy when there are other people involved in the process. Or maybe someone's gone to a lender and had a bad experience and then they come to me and they see the differences night and day. They go, wow, that's what a good loan officer is like, that's what a good experience is like, whereas if they just they only come to me, that's the only experience they know they're like. That's just what buying a home is like. You know it's easy. Buying a home is easy. But you know I can appreciate when other people are involved.
Speaker 2:So you know, focus on building that trust with your clients. Give them a heads up. Hey, you're going to get bombarded. It's just an ugly part of the industry. There's nothing we can do to stop it. I'm going to get you the best deal I can. I'm going to take care of you. I'm going to get you the best experience possible and don't let it be something that you know hinders your business too much. I mean, it honestly doesn't hurt me too much. It's just a nuisance to my borrowers and it's something that we have to explain our way through. But you know, just come from a place of education. I think that you can avoid a lot of the hurdles.
Speaker 1:I think you, like you said before you hit the nail on the head. There's really I don't want to beat the dead horse but the consumers out there. Let's go down the list for kind of a summary of benefits and whatnot for the consumers out there. If you're planning on and this, just this, doesn't just go for mortgage If you are planning for applying for a home loan, an auto loan, a goodness, new credit card, any of the above financially, be prepared to field the trigger leads. Every industry is doing it. It can be advantageous for you and also can be a nuisance. I would say embrace it until it goes away, which, if it never goes away, you've got tools like the opt out website that we showed and the do not call list. Make sure that you're on those things that will help you with all types of spam calls. From a lender's perspective, you got to have to roll with it.
Speaker 1:I think setting proper expectations, being upfront with your customers and letting them know what they're about to go through and what they're going to experience is important, especially starting that new relationship. If you say, hey, you're about to be bombarded with phone calls, text messages and then it happens you now are the expert, you now are the trusted individual that was the one that warned them. In addition, you are the truth teller of the transaction. I believe that that goes a long way. Now, if a borrower gets baited into something like that, hey, you've got to embrace that as well. You can't be pissed off at every person that leaves you. Find a way to turn that opportunity into other opportunities. Review that transaction with them. Confirm that it is a good deal for them, so that they know that you are again the truth teller. They will recommend you to other friends, other family members, others that are purchasing just from that act in itself.
Speaker 1:From the realtor side of things, guys, just keep doing what you're doing. This doesn't really affect you much. We'd appreciate it if you give heads up and just have your individual lenders back when it comes to these type of trigger leads and incentives. At the end of the day, we want what's best for the customer. I think that is something that has been lost over the last year, simply because there hasn't been enough business to go around. People are doing some things that are maybe not as ethical as they should be. I can tell you that myself and anybody on this show is the number. Ethics is the number one. Focus that we have are borrowers, the ethics of what we do and doing the right thing. So, ben, thank you for joining us. Brother, always a good discussion, getting some insight from a different perspective. And you guys, we will catch you on the next webcast. Thanks for watching, guys.